Comments on: Drunk Driving and Mens Rea http://theexcludedmiddle.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/drunk-driving-and-mens-rea/ 'Philosophy can at most tell us what it would be like to be rational.' Korsgaard Fri, 11 Sep 2009 15:36:18 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Trish http://theexcludedmiddle.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/drunk-driving-and-mens-rea/#comment-907 Trish Mon, 27 Jul 2009 19:14:38 +0000 http://theexcludedmiddle.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/drunk-driving-and-mens-rea/#comment-907 I believe he should take at least some responsibility for this. The bar would have been held liable and when they handed over the keys to him they gave him the responsibility. For him to allow you to drive was unexceptable as well as criminal in my eyes. He's the one who should have been charged! What do you do in a case like this? No memory of the night? That is really hard to try to deal with. Good Luck! I believe he should take at least some responsibility for this. The bar would have been held liable and when they handed over the keys to him they gave him the responsibility. For him to allow you to drive was unexceptable as well as criminal in my eyes. He’s the one who should have been charged!
What do you do in a case like this? No memory of the night? That is really hard to try to deal with. Good Luck!

]]> By: Lori http://theexcludedmiddle.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/drunk-driving-and-mens-rea/#comment-906 Lori Thu, 23 Jul 2009 02:22:41 +0000 http://theexcludedmiddle.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/drunk-driving-and-mens-rea/#comment-906 Hi, my name is Lori. I have recently been convicted of DUI and I have been searching for answers as to what happened the night of my incident for I have absolute no memory of it. I do not go out to bars, or go partying, my daily routines are work, family life, and bingo. Yes there have been times where I have drank too much, but I have never attempted to get behind the wheel of a vehicle in my 20+ years of driving. I am usually the one who is the designated driver. I have been playing bingo for the last 10 years, and at the same hall. Since the hall opened a bar, about 6 years ago, I have gone into have a drink on a couple different occasions, but I always went back to playing bingo. This night my intentions were to play bingo as usual, and I decided to have a drink for it was very hot out, and I had the next day off. However I lost interest half way through my second drink and gave my cards away. This was about 7:15 or so. Totally unlike me. I went back out on the balcony to finish my drink. I recall a woman telling me how flushed I was and that I should go back inside. I remember saying I was anyway for I wanted to get another drink. I do not remember ordering or drinking that 3rd drink. It was like I walked through that patio door into the bar on to the grass of the accident scene. I have never had this type of experience in my life of not remembering, for it is not in my character to become intoxicated. As a responsible person I accepted my responsibility for my actions, even though I do not remember. In my search for answers, I learned from the 3 people, that I had turned my keys over to the bartender that night and she was going to put me in a cab, but because my THEN husband came in and said it would not be necessary for he would see me home safe. My keys were then given to him, she even said he shook her hand. Everything I know about the events of this night have been told to me. All I have asked for was not to receive a criminal record, for I did not have my keys when I left, I do not remember first hand what took place, and it was totally out of my character to become in such a mentally incapacitated state. What he did was criminal, for what he has told me about the condition I was in, he clearly knew I should not be behind the wheel of my car, though he did anyway. I lost about 3 hours of my life that night and I have since been trying to recover it, though I have only been able to through others in find some answers. My anger that he would not only put me in such a position, but also for his disregard for the safety of others on the road that night. He has told me that I make it sound like I am up for murder, which I replied that he is lucky I am not up for manslaughter. He could of just left me there to find my own way home..but instead he chose to give me my keys and tell me that he would follow me. I am not sure how this will pertain to mens rea, but thought I would let you and others discuss it. Thanks for listening.... Hi, my name is Lori. I have recently been convicted of DUI and I have been searching for answers as to what happened the night of my incident for I have absolute no memory of it. I do not go out to bars, or go partying, my daily routines are work, family life, and bingo. Yes there have been times where I have drank too much, but I have never attempted to get behind the wheel of a vehicle in my 20+ years of driving. I am usually the one who is the designated driver. I have been playing bingo for the last 10 years, and at the same hall. Since the hall opened a bar, about 6 years ago, I have gone into have a drink on a couple different occasions, but I always went back to playing bingo. This night my intentions were to play bingo as usual, and I decided to have a drink for it was very hot out, and I had the next day off. However I lost interest half way through my second drink and gave my cards away. This was about 7:15 or so. Totally unlike me. I went back out on the balcony to finish my drink. I recall a woman telling me how flushed I was and that I should go back inside. I remember saying I was anyway for I wanted to get another drink. I do not remember ordering or drinking that 3rd drink. It was like I walked through that patio door into the bar on to the grass of the accident scene. I have never had this type of experience in my life of not remembering, for it is not in my character to become intoxicated. As a responsible person I accepted my responsibility for my actions, even though I do not remember. In my search for answers, I learned from the 3 people, that I had turned my keys over to the bartender that night and she was going to put me in a cab, but because my THEN husband came in and said it would not be necessary for he would see me home safe. My keys were then given to him, she even said he shook her hand. Everything I know about the events of this night have been told to me.

All I have asked for was not to receive a criminal record, for I did not have my keys when I left, I do not remember first hand what took place, and it was totally out of my character to become in such a mentally incapacitated state. What he did was criminal, for what he has told me about the condition I was in, he clearly knew I should not be behind the wheel of my car, though he did anyway.

I lost about 3 hours of my life that night and I have since been trying to recover it, though I have only been able to through others in find some answers. My anger that he would not only put me in such a position, but also for his disregard for the safety of others on the road that night. He has told me that I make it sound like I am up for murder, which I replied that he is lucky I am not up for manslaughter. He could of just left me there to find my own way home..but instead he chose to give me my keys and tell me that he would follow me.

I am not sure how this will pertain to mens rea, but thought I would let you and others discuss it.

Thanks for listening….

]]> By: Dave http://theexcludedmiddle.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/drunk-driving-and-mens-rea/#comment-842 Dave Mon, 06 Oct 2008 00:00:04 +0000 http://theexcludedmiddle.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/drunk-driving-and-mens-rea/#comment-842 I believe your logic isn't exactly right. If someone was intoxicated and stuck his wife with an axe, his drunkenness would be no justification to try and prove lack of the required mens rea for the crime (1st or 2nd degree murder). In the given case with drunk driving, Martin Heidgen had chosen to drink the 14 or so beers and took no precaution to prevent himself from driving. If you know you're prone to wanting to drive when you're drunk, you give your keys to someone else. Despite his intoxication, he chose to drive and indeed drive 2 miles in the wrong direction of a one way street with numerous cars frantically pulling out of his way until he finally slammed into the limo. Drunk driving has no mens rea requirement as it's a public well-being crime, however murder does require intent, or action with an extreme reckless regard for human life. Martin Heidgen, had that when he chose to drive after 14 beers, which is why he was convicted with murder in the 2nd degree. Frankly, the law cannot allow for drunkenness to excuse criminal acts because of lack of mens rea, because it would allow every abusive husband/boyfriend to claim that they didn't have the mental capacity to intend the broken bones and injuries when they were beating their child/wife/girlfriend with the baseball bat. As for the last post, if you've been drinking and you don't own a breathalyzer to check your BAC before driving, then you shouldn't be driving unless you're willing to risk yours and others lives. They're on ebay for $15-20, but even then you can't really be sure that you'll drive safely, so it's best to let your DD drive, or call a cab. I believe your logic isn’t exactly right. If someone was intoxicated and stuck his wife with an axe, his drunkenness would be no justification to try and prove lack of the required mens rea for the crime (1st or 2nd degree murder). In the given case with drunk driving, Martin Heidgen had chosen to drink the 14 or so beers and took no precaution to prevent himself from driving. If you know you’re prone to wanting to drive when you’re drunk, you give your keys to someone else. Despite his intoxication, he chose to drive and indeed drive 2 miles in the wrong direction of a one way street with numerous cars frantically pulling out of his way until he finally slammed into the limo. Drunk driving has no mens rea requirement as it’s a public well-being crime, however murder does require intent, or action with an extreme reckless regard for human life. Martin Heidgen, had that when he chose to drive after 14 beers, which is why he was convicted with murder in the 2nd degree. Frankly, the law cannot allow for drunkenness to excuse criminal acts because of lack of mens rea, because it would allow every abusive husband/boyfriend to claim that they didn’t have the mental capacity to intend the broken bones and injuries when they were beating their child/wife/girlfriend with the baseball bat.

As for the last post, if you’ve been drinking and you don’t own a breathalyzer to check your BAC before driving, then you shouldn’t be driving unless you’re willing to risk yours and others lives. They’re on ebay for $15-20, but even then you can’t really be sure that you’ll drive safely, so it’s best to let your DD drive, or call a cab.

]]> By: Billy http://theexcludedmiddle.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/drunk-driving-and-mens-rea/#comment-838 Billy Thu, 18 Sep 2008 21:38:58 +0000 http://theexcludedmiddle.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/drunk-driving-and-mens-rea/#comment-838 In a less dramatic scenario, I'm concerned that a person arrested for Driving Under the Influence has the ability to know in the moment whether or not he/she is over the legal limit. Where I live, a person who has a blood alcohol content of .08 or higher can be arrested for DUI...My contention is that after a drink or two or three, most people do not know and cannot whether they are .07 or .09. If they are driving 75 mph in a 55mph zone, they know, because their speedometer tells them so. They know whether or not they are wearing ther seatbelt. But they do not know they are driving over the legal limit until it is too late. In a less dramatic scenario, I’m concerned that a person arrested for Driving Under the Influence has the ability to know in the moment whether or not he/she is over the legal limit. Where I live, a person who has a blood alcohol content of .08 or higher can be arrested for DUI…My contention is that after a drink or two or three, most people do not know and cannot whether they are .07 or .09. If they are driving 75 mph in a 55mph zone, they know, because their speedometer tells them so. They know whether or not they are wearing ther seatbelt. But they do not know they are driving over the legal limit until it is too late.

]]> By: Drunk Driving & Tracing « The Excluded Middle http://theexcludedmiddle.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/drunk-driving-and-mens-rea/#comment-603 Drunk Driving & Tracing « The Excluded Middle Sat, 01 Dec 2007 01:42:12 +0000 http://theexcludedmiddle.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/drunk-driving-and-mens-rea/#comment-603 [...] colloquium really helped me make sense of a discussion we had here at EM a while back: drunk driving & mens rea. A paradigmatic example of this sort of responsibility attribution is the case of drunken driving. A [...] [...] colloquium really helped me make sense of a discussion we had here at EM a while back: drunk driving & mens rea. A paradigmatic example of this sort of responsibility attribution is the case of drunken driving. A [...]

]]> By: voice of reason http://theexcludedmiddle.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/drunk-driving-and-mens-rea/#comment-438 voice of reason Mon, 03 Sep 2007 07:31:31 +0000 http://theexcludedmiddle.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/drunk-driving-and-mens-rea/#comment-438 DUI is a very emotional topic. One problem is that the crime of DUI, is not always the same as 'drunk driving'. Rather the state declares a certain about of alcohol, .08% BAC, as a level at which it considers someone intoxicated. Even the worlds best driver, who shows no signs of intoxication, is considered by law to be intoxicated at .08% BAC. Millions of people go out, and responsible drink, and then responsible drive safely home each year. The problem seems to be a small group of alcoholics, who continually drive drunk. Another problem is that the statistics on 'alcohol-related' traffic deaths are very misleading. DUI is a very emotional topic.

One problem is that the crime of DUI, is not always the same as ‘drunk driving’.

Rather the state declares a certain about of alcohol, .08% BAC, as a level at which it considers someone intoxicated. Even the worlds best driver, who shows no signs of intoxication, is considered by law to be intoxicated at .08% BAC.

Millions of people go out, and responsible drink, and then responsible drive safely home each year. The problem seems to be a small group of alcoholics, who continually drive drunk.

Another problem is that the statistics on ‘alcohol-related’ traffic deaths are very misleading.

]]> By: chuck stubbart http://theexcludedmiddle.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/drunk-driving-and-mens-rea/#comment-405 chuck stubbart Wed, 29 Aug 2007 02:51:59 +0000 http://theexcludedmiddle.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/drunk-driving-and-mens-rea/#comment-405 Drunk driving can be stopped. Even where drunkenness is rampant. I’m thinking about Sweden, where I taught for several months during the 1990s. At parties I attended, many Swedes were drinking. But, having taken on just one beer or one glass of wine, they would call a cab to return home. Next morning they would all come back for breakfast at the host’s home! Living in Linkoping in an apartment, we noticed that Saturday nights were noisy, with many drunken kids out in the streets on foot ….but no cars. I never saw anyone who had been drinking insist on driving a car. Evidently, a Swede’s friends and relatives take such exception, they rate this ban so highly, the disapproval is so complete and moral outrage is so great – even drunken people won’t drive……. It was amazing to observe their system in action. It worked because of punishment and group pressure. The whole system reminds me of the stigma, the bans, the ostracism placed on homosexuality here in the United States when I was a kid. Drunk driving can be stopped. Even where drunkenness is rampant. I’m thinking about Sweden, where I taught for several months during the 1990s. At parties I attended, many Swedes were drinking. But, having taken on just one beer or one glass of wine, they would call a cab to return home. Next morning they would all come back for breakfast at the host’s home! Living in Linkoping in an apartment, we noticed that Saturday nights were noisy, with many drunken kids out in the streets on foot ….but no cars. I never saw anyone who had been drinking insist on driving a car. Evidently, a Swede’s friends and relatives take such exception, they rate this ban so highly, the disapproval is so complete and moral outrage is so great – even drunken people won’t drive……. It was amazing to observe their system in action. It worked because of punishment and group pressure. The whole system reminds me of the stigma, the bans, the ostracism placed on homosexuality here in the United States when I was a kid.

]]> By: FYI « The Excluded Middle http://theexcludedmiddle.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/drunk-driving-and-mens-rea/#comment-158 FYI « The Excluded Middle Fri, 06 Jul 2007 22:56:04 +0000 http://theexcludedmiddle.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/drunk-driving-and-mens-rea/#comment-158 [...] 6th, 2007 · No Comments Pam’s post “Drunk Driving and Mens Rea” is being discussed by David Fryman [...] [...] 6th, 2007 · No Comments Pam’s post “Drunk Driving and Mens Rea” is being discussed by David Fryman [...]

]]> By: Sago Boulevard :: Mens Rea Under the Influence :: July :: 2007 http://theexcludedmiddle.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/drunk-driving-and-mens-rea/#comment-157 Sago Boulevard :: Mens Rea Under the Influence :: July :: 2007 Fri, 06 Jul 2007 18:18:55 +0000 http://theexcludedmiddle.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/drunk-driving-and-mens-rea/#comment-157 [...] most cases, the applicable crime is involuntary manslaughter but law isn’t my subject today. Pam Stubbart of The Excluded Middle wonders about the seeming lack of mens rea in this kind of case. (via Philosophers’ Carnival [...] [...] most cases, the applicable crime is involuntary manslaughter but law isn’t my subject today. Pam Stubbart of The Excluded Middle wonders about the seeming lack of mens rea in this kind of case. (via Philosophers’ Carnival [...]

]]> By: jordandelange http://theexcludedmiddle.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/drunk-driving-and-mens-rea/#comment-135 jordandelange Thu, 28 Jun 2007 10:02:04 +0000 http://theexcludedmiddle.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/drunk-driving-and-mens-rea/#comment-135 Pam, Oops, I didn't see that you had replied to my comment. I like your response in terms of probabilities in (2) and (3). So let's try another thought experiment! :) Let's say we have a gun which operates similarly to one used by someone playing russian rollette. That is, there is a single live bullet and x blanks and order of the live bullet and the blanks is randomnized. Let someone fire this gun at another person (and let them be a perfect shot, say). The probability that the person will kill the other person is 1/(x+1). Now, wouldn't we still consider this person to have murdered whoever they shot if a bullet came out rather than a blank, even if the probability might be somewhat low, precisely because the person had the intent to put the other person at some (known) risk? It seems here we can quantify this probability and the person who shoots the gun can know what it is, and we can know that they know what it is, etc. Now, this doesn't address the problems for "bad consequences," justification of punishment but couldn't the intent to put someone in (known) danger just itself justify punishment? It also does not address more general problems about moral luck and how it should work out in punishment. But maybe it is a case that can deal with some of your probabilistic worries? Although I guess not all, as the "threshold" problem would remain. Pam,

Oops, I didn’t see that you had replied to my comment.

I like your response in terms of probabilities in (2) and (3). So let’s try another thought experiment! :)

Let’s say we have a gun which operates similarly to one used by someone playing russian rollette. That is, there is a single live bullet and x blanks and order of the live bullet and the blanks is randomnized. Let someone fire this gun at another person (and let them be a perfect shot, say). The probability that the person will kill the other person is 1/(x+1).

Now, wouldn’t we still consider this person to have murdered whoever they shot if a bullet came out rather than a blank, even if the probability might be somewhat low, precisely because the person had the intent to put the other person at some (known) risk? It seems here we can quantify this probability and the person who shoots the gun can know what it is, and we can know that they know what it is, etc.

Now, this doesn’t address the problems for “bad consequences,” justification of punishment but couldn’t the intent to put someone in (known) danger just itself justify punishment? It also does not address more general problems about moral luck and how it should work out in punishment. But maybe it is a case that can deal with some of your probabilistic worries? Although I guess not all, as the “threshold” problem would remain.

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